I realize this is just a state law, so many of you who live outside of California might not have heard of it. But Proposition 8 is the "Protect Marriage act", keeping marriage between only a man and a woman. Back in 2000, we fought for Prop. 22, for the same thing, and it passed with 61% of the vote. Recently, four California judges found a loop-hole in California's constitution and decided to overturn it, making marriage open to same-sex couples.
Proposition 8 says "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." It does not take away any rights or benefits from gay or lesbian domestic partners. Under California law, they "shall have the same rights, protections and benefits" as married spouses. Prop. 8 won't change this. It just won't be called marriage. And MOST importantly (to me), public school teachers won't have the option of teaching it to our children without our consent.
The First Presidency of our church has written statements about Prop. 8, urging us as members of the LDS church, to get involved by knocking doors, making phone calls, and donating. Their letters have been read in church several times over the past couple of months. Before all of this, I'm not sure I would have felt the severity of it all. Like most of us, I've known gay people and seen lots of good. It's not a character debate or a matter of passing judgement. It's about protecting the family, protecting the most precious institution of marriage, protecting religion, and protecting our children from what would be a horribly confusing perspective.
Come November, VOTE. and Vote Yes on Prop. 8.
54 comments:
You wrote this perfectly! I wonder if this issue will be brought up at General Conference. It will be interesting to listen and find out. Thanks for writing this. I may just link to your blog as it's a big "AMEN" to what you wrote. Thanks Lillie!
Lillie,
That was awesome! Thanks for your words. Dayna
Wow, I love how you put things into words so perfectly. Yes, this would be a big issue, and I also wonder if this will be brought up at Conference this weekend. Although I do have a family member who recently came out (and has a partner), we've all accepted it as much as we can, and of course our love doesn't change for him, but it still doesn't change my mind on the subject. I never want my children to grow up thinking that a marriage between ANY two people is the same. It will interesting to see what pans out. Anyway, crazy times now, huh? By the way, don't feel bad about Sophia not wanting to be home and all that...Lillie does the same thing, in fact when I go pick her up from nursery, she doesn't want to leave, and when we're at joyschool, she's like, "bye, mom", I practically have to beg her to come back and give me a hug/kiss! Think of it as a good thing, that she WANTS to be social. I think it's healthy! Sophia is such a doll, I LOVE her backpack. This is a long comment.
I guess this might be a silly question but if this were another "religious" issue such as reading the bible...and the state were trying to enforce reading the bible because it is what "they" believe, would so many people feel the same way? The bible says that marriage is between a man and a woman...and I understand that many people believe everything the bible says, BUT, what if you don't belive that book? I think (if memory serves) that members of LDS also aren't proponents of drinking alcohol....what if the state was trying to ban drinking? Would people feel as strongly about that issue? It is also something that people with a religious background believe, but we must remember the separation of church and state. Just because the bible says things are one way, you have to remember that not EVERYONE believes in the bible, so they can't be expected to follow those same principles. This is not directed towards you in a negative way and you don't know me, hence the anonymous comment, but I just wanted to give people the "other" perspective.
Lillie,
It's Erin's cousin(in-law) again. I'm so glad that you posted this. I am in total agreement with you! I have nothing against people who choose to live an alternative lifestyle. Like Erin said, it has been a bit of an adjustment for us with this family member, but it doesn't change our love for him. Marriage is truly one of the most sacred things that we have. It is the key to our beliefs. Thank you for posting this! Also, your pictures look great. Are you still mostly using your 30mm lense? I'm debating asking for it for Christmas. I have the 50 and it's just a pain with the D40.
To the anonymous commenter:
No one is trying to take away their right to formally be recognized. ( I believe civil union if the word they are thinking of using instead.) It just id not the same thing. Marriage is a term given to man and woman nothing else. As far as your "separation of church and state" go, it would appear from this particular law that it actually makes the separation less. If church's are required to recognize what they disagree with in their particular doctrine and they are liable to be sued how is that separation?
Hey Lillie! Great blog! Arizona is having the same vote. We had a great time cold calling for 3 hours one night. But only one in three people we called was in favor of our prop 102. How sad! Family is the moral fiber that holds all societies together. No government, no religion, no blog group could provide the same service. 24/7 interactions with little malleable minds. Teaching them what is perfect, and what should be the goal, and how to get there. If any union between 2 people were called a marriage then the core of society, family, wouldn't survive. And of course more people try things out that are socially acceptable. And could there possibly be an argument that the human race could exist on gay unions alone, even with artificial insemination. Every father can tell you he feels more love towards those children who came from his own DNA then those of his neighbor, mothers and fathers share a special bond (no matter how abused today) when their cells combine to create their own children, who are no one else’s. Bible aside, marriage between one man and one woman is the only way for our society to be successful for any length of time into the future. And don’t we all want a future for our children?
I agree with Alysa, you wrote this so perfectly. I've been wanting to post something about it for a while. It is such a 'touchy' subject, one that starts lots of debate. To me it is so simple... our rights will be taken away if we are 'forced' to have gay marriages performed in our chapels, or taught to our children. Of course the church would never allow it, so it will be interesting to see how that will be handled if this doesn't pass.
Thank you for posting that on your blog! :)
Melissa, That is a good point you bring up that if part of the proposition is that churches can get sued for turning away couples of the same sex, than that too is not a separation, as it states our law should be.
Maybe some sort of compromise such as certain churches who aren't opposed to performing such ceremonies can be available for these couples. I mean, reality is that many churches are in dire need of new members, what better way than to open your hearts and minds to all walks of life, no matter who they have chosen to love and commit to in this lifetime. My personal belief is, who are WE to judge others? Isn't that one of God's tasks?
Anonymous, do you have a name? It's just less wierd that way... but no pressure. And no offense... obviously you don't mind a debate.
No one can argue that it's not our place to judge. That's not what this is about. Nobody's asking for any form of punishment for their lifestyle. Just one less vote of encouragement for our children to try it out. Because like Jeanette said, when it's made COMPLETELY socially acceptable, more of our children WILL experiment.
I've been searching for an analogy. Here's a bad one. What if, say, enough members of our country wanted to be communist, and argued that our not allowing it infringed on their freedoms. Wouldn't allowing it, infringe on the rest of ours'? Perhaps some things just ARE mutually exclusive. We're not trying to make things worse for gay couples, like I keep saying, it's all about protecting our children, and grandchildren from being taught day after day, not just from trashy magazines they should know to ignore, but from their respectable, trustworthy teachers they're directed to heed, that there is absolutely no difference in marriage between two men, two women, or one of each as it should be.
There is much compassion and understanding for people who choose to live an "alternative lifestyle." But it needs to remain just that... alternative. The basic argument of reproducing can't just be tossed aside because we've heard it so many times. There IS a right way and it's proven by nature. The right way to form a family is the way that CAN.... form a family. If our children are made to genuinely believe there is no difference, the family will be demolished.
This country was founded on Christianity. Whether or not you believe in the bible is almost moot. There must be SOME respect for the core of our country, some trust in the founding fathers, and some point at which people recognize that there are a lot of wrong paths and wrong destinations and "progression" is not always a good thing. We're so cocky today to assume that we are better than those before us because we can open our minds farther and tolerate just about anything. Where is the line?
And if the goal of a church is simply to gain numbers like some club, or political party, than sure, acceptance of ALL things, no rules or expectations, or moral standards would make perfect sense. But then it really would be just some club... wouldn't it?
Isn't that the point of having faith in a God? To admit that He knows best and THAT'S IT. There's no room for debate when you really have faith. The gospel teaches only truth. It leaves room for all of us who make mistakes and are repentant. It does not, however make room for all of our interpretation OF truth. How else would it be that solid rock we hold fast to?
Our country may have been founded on Christianity, but isn't church and state supposed to be SEPARATE according to the constitution? I feel the government should have no say in same sex marriages or regular marriages at that, it should be a church's decision whether or not they want to marry a same sex couple. What is it to us if a gay or lesbian couple get married? They do not receive more tax cuts or any more benefits than a so called "regular" marriages. I just don't get why it matters. You can explain to your children your beliefs and hope they will find those important as well. You are probably thinking I am an atheist or even a lesbian, but I am a Catholic mother and wife. I'm not trying to bash you or say your beliefs aren't right, I'm just defending the other side.
Maggie, (I'm assuming you are "anonymous")
I'm not sure how much of the LDS faith you are aware of, but gay and lesbian people are not "turned" away from our church. There are just certain things they are not allowed to participate in. There are certain guidelines that are in place for people of our faith. If you choose not to abide by those, then your access to certain things are limited (ie. temples). This is no different than if you choose to not abide by the "laws" set by our government. That is one of the religious freedoms we are able to enjoy in this great country. We are taught by our religious leaders to love everyone despite their choice of lifstyle, but that does not mean we have to agree with the choices they make.
I have to totally agree with Lillie here. The human race would cease to exist if the "natural design of man," by God, were not followed. Very nicely put Lillie.
I am not anonymous by the way.
Dear Anonymous,
As you point out "remembering" separation of church and state, I'd like to point out that NOT passing Prop 8 would impose the state's will on churches (and those church-going people of the state) who stand against it, thus not keeping church and state separate in the other direction, if that makes sense?
In my observation, non-religious people seem to want "God" off the quarter, want the pledge of allegiance out of schools, "One nation under God, want to keep everything completely ....EXCEPT marriage? For some reason they want to take a traditionally religious institution and turn it into a secular one.
Separation of church and state should go in both directions.
Jackie
Lillie (and readers),
I am not being argumentative here, I am truly just curious (I'm not in CA, and have not paid much attention to this issue). Why will churches be forced to recognize same sex marriage if Prop 8 is not passed? Isn't same sex marriage recognized in Massachusetts? Have Massachusetts churches been forced to recognize same sex marriage?
I'm actually in favor of Prop 8 (although I don't see what it has to do with protecting our children).
I have difficulty understanding how someone can claim to adhere to a religious tradition, be it catholicism or anything else, and then "not see anything wrong" with a practice that is explicitly forbidden by that faith.
Gosh Lillie, I thought I was visiting a mommy blog. I'm so disillusioned.
As for the judgement issue, Christ said that we have to be prepared to be judged by the same standard by which we judge others. On issues of law we are expected to make judgements. It is irresponsible and ridiculous to assume that we can never make any kind of judgments in this life. What we don't do is consign people to heaven or hell. That judgement belongs to God.
Wow, wouldn't it be so crazy and interesting if "Anonymous" was the author of "Seriously, So Blessed!"? Imagine, she was surfing through Mommy blogs, looking for little gems to satire and ridicule, and she just can't resist...
It is not the job of conservatives to prove that gay marriage will hurt society--it is the job of liberals to prove that it will NOT hurt society.
Research indicates that children raised in gay homes are much more likely to experiment with homosexuality than those raised in heterosexual homes (see Stacey/Biblarz, which still has not been refuted and was done by researchers who support gay marriage).
This is a deal-killer.
Hi Lillie
Some of our best friends are gay and they have a son who it Ty's age. They have been together 10 years. Who's to say they can't get married??? Who's to tell their son that his parent's are 'alternative'?? Why can't it be 'my mom and mem'? Isn't is better to have two loving parents who are both men or women than abusive or split parents? Who is the judge of this and who makes the dictonary on this? I think you are an amazing person & I love reading your blog, but I want to be in your shoes & hear what you hear and you be in my shoes & see what I see. The thing is that we live in a country that is open to many things and that is what makes this America. Who are we to judge what makes each indiviual happy? Who are we to make anyone feel less because of the path they have taken, chosen or not. I would hope that if any of my kids turned out to be gay, or yours, that the community & environment that they live in would accept them & let them live as happy people and accept the rights they want as Americans, becaues, utlimalty, isn't that what we want for our kids..I so don't want to post this for all of the negative posts I'll receive back i'm sure, I have read all of the other ones....I just think that God (and country) should treat everyone as equals. Everyone. Again, who are we to judge? Does it make someone a better person beacuse they are in a horrible relationship with someone of the opposite sex or are you better because you are in a wonderful relationship with someone of the same sex?? Anyways, lots to talk about, miss you guys & hope we can get together for a great conversation!!! :)
Great post Lillie! Ross mentioned to me at work that you had posted and had several responses ... I thought I'd add my two cents for what it's worth ...
The common argument given for those in favor of same-sex marriage is, "what's the big deal?? It doesn't affect you ... why should you care who marries whom - no matter the sex? Aren't you tolerant to other's lifestyles? Why force your beliefs on someone else?" Something to that effect.
The reason that I support Prop 8 isn't to take away freedom it is to protect freedom.
Proponents of same-sex marriage strive to make such unions a "civil right". The challenge with this definition for me is that where perceived civil rights have clashed with religious rights ... civil rights have won in the case of homosexual relationships.
There have already been numerous lawsuits sparked by homosexual couples against individuals and groups who didn't feel comfortable offering adoption services, invitro fertilization and even marriage services on their own church property (Methodist Chruch) based on their religious feelings towards the practice of homosexuality. In these cases the religious rights lost to "perceived" civil rights of homosexual couples.
In California, homosexual couples can unite as registered domestic partners and receive the same "rights" that married couples enjoy. Prop 8 takes away none of these rights.
Marriage however, is a religious institution. Marriage existed before state. Those who espouse traditional marriage and have fought for its defense have taken their case to the people for a vote. In almost all cases, the people have voted in favor of retaining a traditional definition of marriage. In contrast, those who press same-sex marriage have taken their case to the courts and to judges and have forced their beliefs upon the people. Forcing a definition of a "civil right" ... to a point of excluding the religious rights of others.
If prop 8 fails the curriculum in our school systems, which teaches on the family, would be required to rewrite the text to include equal treatment of same-sex unions. Our children would be taught that homosexual "marriage" is the same as traditional marriage.
It's conceivable that colleges that offer married housing, and receive federal funding, would be required to offer housing for same-sex couples - even if it were against the religious beliefs espoused by that institution. That any business or other institution that offers their services to the public would be required, even against their religious beliefs, to offer those same services to same-sex couples. Precedent actions in the courts already are showing this to be true.
In our society the word "tolerance" has come to mean "acceptance", and even to condone an action. Jesus said, "love one another", but he also said, "Go and sin no more". We can and should love others, but that doesn't mean we should sit idle and condone, accept, and embrace actions that have a detrimental impact on our society, our families, and upon our religious rights.
Chris
Court ... I love ya, and completely respect your thoughts. I just want to make sure that I'm understood completely in my post with respect to your previous comments. I think we were writing at the same time.
The idea behind Prop 8 is to protect the religious definition of "marriage" not to take away the rights of same-sex couples. This isn't equality thing it's a religious thing.
I don't have a problem with same-sex couples having the same rights that I have with respect to tax rights, visitations, insurance benefits, and any other conceivable "right" provided under the law to "married" couples. And I would hope that they or their children would never feel inferior in any way. My understanding is that these rights are already available for registered domestic partners in CA.
I have friends that are gay and consider them fantastic, loving and caring individuals.
I have no interest in taking away any rights - prop 8 doesn't.
The reason I'll vote yes on 8 is to protect my own religious rights from what I perceive as a very "slippery slope" and to defend the traditional definition of marriage, which I believe is beneficial for society.
Yes, I'm a rambler...I totally respect anyone's religious & personal beliefs, I just wanted to put my two cents in! Miss you guys, all of you!!
Lillie, You are right on. You need to write a letter to the editor. Chris, you were right on too. The first amendment is the FIRST amendment for a reason. This land was founded from want of religious freedom. People can live how they want to live and have the lifestyles they want to have, but if prop 8 doesn't pass, we are going to see so many lawsuits, many against churches. And usually, when the case is a civil rights against religious rights, the religious rights loose. The "live and let live" doesn't seem to go both ways. I'd be happy to let people live the lifestyle they want, if they would let us practice our religions as we believe. In an earlier comment, someone said there should be a compromise with gays and churches. But the activists will NEVER compromise. They'll never say, "We'll be happy as long as we can marry in some church. They will push and push, and sue and sue, until they can either marry in every church or run every church out of the state. The activists have NO "tolerance" for people of faith. Gays already have their rights. Passing prop 8 is essential to protecting our religious rights, and our parenting rights as well.
I find it curious that homosexual behaviors are "detrimental" to our society. Seriously? Wow. I didn't know that two people in a committed,loving relationship who are good citizens could be deemed detrimental. Oh, this is good too..."marriage between one man and one woman is the only way for our society to be successful for any length of time into the future." How's that? So if gay people can get married, then no one else will have children anymore? Are all of the "gays" going to turn the rest of us? Sounds pretty paranoid to me.
I think one big difference here is if you believe that homosexuals CHOOSE to be, or are BORN that way. I believe they are born that way, which means God created them that way, and, I'm sorry to break it to you, loves them just as much as the rest of us. Heck, Jesus wasn't very mainstream Himself....hanging out with prostitutes and such...He probably even had some gay friends.
Why can't we all just respect each other and each other's choices. Live and let live, right? And I think it would be great to teach about homosexuality in schools because let's face it, it IS a part of life and it's not going anywhere, and knowledge concerning it will only HELP in peoples' understanding/tolerance. I would hope that the amount of hate crimes against homosexuals could even be affected if people just grow up learning about and understanding homosexuality as a part of life. What can be wrong with that?
Anonymous, Courtney, Maggie....
I said more than I needed to in my first comment. And I feel like my tone came off wrong. Last thing I wanted to do when I posted about this was become contentious. I'm so sorry for anyone who has left my blog angry. That was not the goal.
(Recent anonymous) I'm not really sure if you were responding to me in particular, or another commentor on my blog, but I need to make one thing very clear:
My beliefs are based on my faith... and my faith DEFINITELY teaches me that we come from a loving Heavenly Father who loves ALL of his children equally. I would NEVER be so ignorant to believe that God's love is conditional. I have children myself, and so can grasp probably only a tiny bit of just how much he loves us all. NOBODY is debating that. You are assuming that love and tolerance are the same thing.
If my daughters grew up and chose a lifestyle that I believed, because of my faith, was not going to bring them eternal joy, I would be heartbroken, but NOT any less in love with them. It is impossible.
I didn't grow up in a bubble. And I am not some crazy prejudist. I have known and met WONDERFUL gay couples, people, parents, etc...I have also met and known 'not-so-wonderful' couples/ people/ parents who are straight. I feel ridiculous even writing this because of COURSE I have!!!! Of COURSE being straight doesn't make you better than someone who is not! The CHARACTER of homosexual persons is NOT ON TRIAL through Prop 8.
I KNOW that Heavenly Father loves everyone, regardless of their lifestyle. And he gave us agency, so we could all CHOOSE our own path.
But I also believe he is a God of rules and order who expects our works and lifestyle to be in accordance with his teachings. I would never EVER want to get involved in the choices and lives of other people. It's not my business. But unfortunately if Prop 8 doesn't pass, I feel a very real threat on religion.
Maggie, in response to your question about Mass., I don't know the details, but it is my understanding that there WAS an example of a church sued in Mass. for refusing to marry a gay couple. That's the problem, (as I know everyone has stated a million times on here) church and state are not being kept seperate. By making same-sex marriages "equal" in every way, a church's denying to marry them would legally be discrimination. How much more disrespectful could something be? Forcing people who's faith explicitly forbids homosexuality, to embrace it within their own churches!
"Why can't we all just respect each other and each other's choices. Live and let live, right?" (that was you anoymous)
We respect all people, all religions, live how you will. That's why God gave us agency. We just ask for that same respect for our religious beliefs, which we WILL NOT have, if Prop 8 doesn't pass. This is why I am in support. To protect religious freedoms. Not to disprespect, or condemn, or take anything from anyone.
(Courtney, thanks for not being afraid to comment even though you know me-- we should talk. :))
Lillie,
First, I read your blog because you take incredible pictures of your absolutely gorgeous girls! So I feel like I should send a little shout out to your photography skills. It's why I read your blog even though I don't know you. Hope that's not too weird, but we all blog hop, right?
I'm LDS and I live outside of California and I truly don't care whether Proposition 8 passes.
I'm sure you've probably seen this, but I found it very interesting and informative. Written by an LDS scholar about the claimed consequences if proposition 8 fails. FWIW.
www.hrc.org/issues/religion/11304.htm
I'll stop commenting now.... but please keep the pictures coming! I think you should do a tutorial actually and tell us all how you get pictures to have that dark quality... even outside in the middle of the day. They're dark somehow (I'm horribly inadequate at explaining this.. because I have no clue how you do it), and I wish I could get that effect. I love it.
no really, I'm leaving now... :)
I do not live in California. I have done a little research on the issue, but my research has not affected my feelings about same-sex marriage.
I support proposition 8 because I believe in the Bible, and the Book of Mormon and a modern Prophet that all teach me that homosexuality is wrong. I believe the LDS church leaders are asking their members in California to support prop 8 because homosexuality is offensive to God.
I am grateful that my state does not require me to politically defend that religious belief and apply it to a group of people of all religions and non-religions. It is obvious both sides feel very strongly and it is very important to vote and let your voice be heard when the time comes.
Hi Lillie,
I'm a friend of Sarah Stancliff's....and a blog stalker!! :) Hope you don't mind.
I'm just curious: did you read that link that Sandy left in her comment? www.hrc.org/issues/religion/11304.htm
What do you think about it? Do you think this law professor speaks the truth? And if indeed, the church will maintain its right to marry whomever it pleases within its walls, and our children will NOT be taught in school about marriage being between any two people, are you still in favor of Prop 8? I'm so curious to hear others' points of views when you take out those two big issues that everyone is talking about. If we indeed maintain our rights as the law professor stated, would you still be in favor of Prop 8?
Also, I don't know if Jeanette will ever read this comment, but I just wanted to point out that DNA has nothing to do with a father feeling closer to his own children than his neighbors' children, or a mother and father growing closer together as parents. I hope that doesn't sound rude to refute her comment, but I can't help but say it. The love between a parent and child, and between parent and parent, comes from commitment, service, and dedication. I'm pretty sure adoptive parents love their children and each other just as much as Jeantte loves her own biological children and her husband, so long as there is love and commitment and service in that family. There are, sadly, thousands of fathers who feel or show no love toward their children whose DNA they share, nor toward the women with whom they fathered those children.
Thanks for your thoughts!!
So I'm feeling a bit guilty now for my comment...(I'm the most recent "anonymous"...my name is Amy though) I tend to get worked up when it comes to politics/social issues and gay rights is one in particular that I feel strongly about, so I couldn't keep my mouth shut.
What a testament to you though, Lillie, that you have kept your voice in check, even with all of us who disagree with you, and have not become angry or defensive in your tone. I don't think I could do that. I appreciate your thoughtful response and thank you for letting your blog be used as a bit of a forum here for such hot topics. A lot of people wouldn't.
Anyway, just wanted to say that I have been checking in on your blog for sometime now...found it through a friends friends friends blog etc., and I have always been drawn to it for many reasons...your beautfiul photography, clever writing, and wonderful family top the list. It's obvious there is much love there. Kinda sad that I never commented on something before, in a positive way. There were MANY times when I thought of it, but felt weird since I don't know you guys. Blah blah blah...sorry to ramble. Anyway, love your blog and am thankful that I get to peek at it and I'll try to keep my mouth shut from now on. Thanks! :)
Lillie,
Someone said you had a good discussion going on about Prop 8 :) and I just couldn't resist. After reading all of the comments, I felt this little video will be an interesting addition to the topic.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1815820715/bctid1822459319
Anonymous #3
Hi - Many of you seem to know each other - I hit this link from the Yes On 8 site. Your discussion here is interesting and I thought I would add my two cents, for what it's worth.
In my experience, being gay or lesbian is as unchangeable as your skin color. You are what you are. God made me, and I was born a lesbian. Undoubtedly, so to will be some of your children, grandchildren, and other members of your family. It's really not a "choice" or a "lifestyle" people; it's who you are.
I'm also an American. I've lived in numerous places throughout the U.S. - West Coast, East Coast and smack dab in the middle. I went to school, studied hard, got good grades, and did well in life.
I never realized that in the back of my mind I was always a SECOND-CLASS CITIZEN, until the highest Court in California finally said this year that I was EQUAL to everyone else, and should be able to get MARRIED. When I got the news, I sat and cried; it tapped an emotional well in me that I didn't know was there.
I had always accepted my SECOND-CLASS CITIZENSHIP. I'm a "helper" - I help people for a living - that type of personality doesn't usually think of themselves - so it was amazing for the Court to finally say, you're not _________ (fill in the blank with all the mean, negative things that are said about gay and lesbian people, including by some churchs); you're a good person and you and your relationship deserve equal footing in this world.
I don't want to (and I don't think any gay person would want to) get married in your Church, if your Church does not support our relationship. But there are plenty of Churches out there who are wonderful, positive and affirming -- let them perform gay marriages. More love and good things to celebrate in the world are a good thing, not a bad thing.
And, by the way, I have to say that I think this world would be a better place if kids were taught that a Marriage is between two people who LOVE each other; so many times they are taught, by example, if not by word, that Marriages are not a place of love.
Thanks for taking the time to read and think about my post-
The beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on marriage are very simple:
We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
I continue to be baffled by people who claim to be LDS but are unsupportive or dismissive of this effort to enshrine marriage as between a man and a woman. It is selective adherence to LDS doctrine.
I can only imagine what it would be like to feel as Chris does. But sympathy or empathy does not change what I have accepted to be the truth. It is then my responsibility, as it is everyone's, to live my life with that conviction. That means being supportive of measures like Prop 8. It can be hard to tell someone as polite and reasonable as Chris that you disagree with her desire to be married to someone of the same gender, but the difficulty of the act does not negate the truth of it.
Support for traditional marriage need not be based on the purported consequences (true or false) of gay marriage's continued legality in California. As a member of my Church I believe that God speaks to us today through prophets. The word of God has affirmed the importance of traditional marriage in God's plan. Therefore I support proposition 8.
First, like I said, we as Latter Day Saints are encouraged, by the First Presidency of our church, to get involved in this campaign by informing, and getting people to the polls. We are not necessarily encouraged to try to persuade those who oppose us to feel differently ... Just make proactive, those that share our sentiments. So while I don’t want anyone to feel like they can’t share their opinion, I just want to say that it was not my intention to conduct a public argument. It is SUCH a sensitive topic for so many and I hate that something I write might offend someone like Chris.
I keep promising myself that I'm DONE commenting on my own blog, since I feel like I go overboard every time. I wish I were nothing but logical and concise but I'm not. I'm totally emotional…. AND long-winded.
So I DID read the link from Sandy's comment (www.hrc.org/issues/religion/11304.htm)... after my last comment of course. Wow. It definitely makes me feel a little humbled for assuming fact without doing my own research. I'd heard those claims on commercials, flyers, and sources I trust. This paper, written by an LDS Law Professor, refutes them all. The author is just one man and I didn’t read all of his sources, and I don't think his argument about Health classes in schools was all that impressive… (this link from anonymous #3 (http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1815820715) shows another side of that. Watch the video if you're interested. It's about a man arrested (ultimately) for demanding notice from the school when same-sex marriage was being taught to his kindergartener.) But obviously, I don’t want to try to persuade ANYONE to vote for prop. 8 on ‘faulty logic.’
However, even though I hate to offend, and even if each of the six points challenged in the first link are false, no Sylvia, it definitely does not change my opinion on Prop 8. It embarrasses me, as I used so much of its logic, afraid my public blog was not a place to use my testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ alone as logic. But my testimony and faith in a modern day prophet are what make this absolutely clear for me . I wouldn’t expect it to be so clear for someone outside of my faith. But within the church, I’m with my brother-in-law, Joe (Lowdogg- in his comment above.)
It is written by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the 12 apostles in the ‘Proclamation to the Family’ (quoted by Joe/Lowdogg) that “marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children” They, (the First Pres.) have also made many official statements in favor of Prop. 8. These are men that, we as members of the LDS faith believe receive modern day revelation, from God, for us. This is why I support Prop. 8.
Lillie, thanks for being honest and taking the time to share your thoughts. For a long time, I've thought about Prop 8 and why the Church's members were truly supporting it. And I just wished that someone would come out and say it: because we Mormons believe that gay marriage is morally wrong and our First Presidency, whom we believe to be prophets and revelators of God, has told us to support Prop 8. It IS about judging someone's moral choice--Mormons don't think same-sex marriage is morally acceptable. The end. I felt like everyone was using all the unsubstantiated legal rhetoric to defend their stance (unwittingly or not), when in reality, the root of it is, Mormons do NOT believe in gay marriage. So thanks to you adn Lowdogg for your honest thoughts.
And whew! I am DONE with the political blogs! I just posted something political on my blog and it's wearing me out. I'm going back to posting pictures of my kids and house. :)
I could not disagree more strongly with LowDogg when he states that an LDS member who does not support Proposition 8 is exercising selective adherence to LDS doctrine (but I'll spare everyone the argument :)).
I do think it's important for LDS to examine why we support the proposition, and the answer really is simple, as Sylvia said.
Lillie, I don't think anyone would dispute that you are honest, kind, and respectful in discussing such a controversial issue. Especially one that resulted in such unintended audience reaction. :)
Love the blog! (though I'd love it even more if you did some photography tutorials...).
I have to disagree with Sandy on one point- its Lowdogg- the "d" is not capitalized.
Hey, it's me again, Chris. I'll just say one more thing, since it sounds like politics is not your usual blog. But, I do think this is an important point.
And, I have to say that I actually thought more about your side of the issue than I had before, because you all seem like reasonable, responsible, caring people; not at all like the people I have seen at the forefront of the anti-gay political movement.
I came away from your blog with a DEEP APPRECIATION for your desire to teach your children what your faith instructs. But, judging by all your thoughtful comments, I think your relationship with your children will be such that they will listen to you when you say that some people believe that marriage can be between two women or two men, but that is not your belief, that is not what your faith tells you. I'm not sure why they teach kids about marriage at such a young age anyhow; but, you have to talk to your kids about lots of difficult topics -- maybe the death of a loved one, or a pet, talking to strangers, maybe a divorce; this is another reason to discuss your faith with your kids.
However, if Prop 8 passes, it will enshrine YOUR beliefs into MY CONSTITUTION. It's that part of it that is not fair, just or right; in my opinion.
Thanks again, and I'll get off my soapbox now!!
The challenge with supporting prop 8 is that it eliminates the constitutional right that currently exists for two people of the same sex to marry. Supporting prop 8 is not about granting rights to same sex couples, but rather is about eliminating those rights that already exists. This is wrong and unfair. The right to marry the person you love is a civil right that should be granted to all Californias.
There are a number of lies that are being spread to try and convince people that their "rights" are actually being threatened. To read more about these false statements, check out:
http://noonprop8.com/campaign_updates?id=0001
It will be a sad day in California if we return to a philosophy of separate, but equal.
The argument that churches are going to lose the ability to marry (or not marry) whom they choose or that they might lose their tax-exempt status just is NOT true. It's just a scare tactic.
A BYU law professor actually addressed this in great detail, going through all of the claims about schools having to teach that gay marriage is fine, churches losing tax exemptions, pastors being sued, etc. He shows how misleading the scare tactics about the "consequences" if Prop 8 doesn't pass really are. I think it's really important for us all to get educated for ourselves, so we aren't just blindly following our church leaders. As he says "Relying on deceptive arguments is not only contrary to gospel principles, but ultimately works against the very mission of the Church."
You can read his careful research here:
http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=35
Also, the CA Supreme Court decision actually includes a direct answer to this fear, stating:
"[N]o religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs."
Think about it--churches and pastors can already choose who to marry. Churches can say that only members can use their facilities. Pastors don't marry a couple they believe are "unequally yoked." None of that will change if (hopefully) Prop 8 does not pass.
First of all, Lillie you are such an attention junkie. I mean really, writing this controversial topic just to reach that coveted "over 40 comments."
To those who hope Propostion 8 does not pass: you would be better off if it did. Should this right be limited to Californians or opened to all Americans? If you are a believer that it is a right, then you should want it for everyone, not just Californians. If Prop 8 passes, the courts will be forced to rule and the topic will have a faster path to the Supreme Court - THE ultimate law of the land. If Prop 8 does not pass it will take much longer - even decades - for each and every state to pass or rule on this. The Supreme Court is the fastest path to passage. So think about it: Are you willing to sacrifice a battle to win a war? Yes on Prop 8 is actually best for everyone.
Daneen,Stephen,Chris, if any of you happen to top by again... I'm just curious how you found my blog. Your comments are welcome, but Chris, you mentioned finding my link on the YesOn8 site, which one?? I tried to figure it out but couldn't.... and I know nothing about that. Would you let me know if you found me through something other than "a friend of a friend's blog". As you can probably tell, this is NOT a political blog... just one post--- I'm a little nervous if I'm linked somewhere I don't know. Thanks!
And Daneen and Stephen-- if you read through all the comments, you'll see that Sandy left the link for the paper the BYU Law Professor wrote refuting the six points the coallition is using to pass Prop. 8. There has been response to that you can read in the second half of these comments.
Lillie,
Your blog is listed on the Protect Marriage website. Go to "Blog" and then click on the button "Around the blogs." Here's the link: http://www.protectmarriage.com/blog/around-the-blogs/
It used to be the first on the list; now it's the second:)
Anonymous #3
Absolutely incorrect.
There is no proof that children in gay households have any inclination towards being gay, and in fact the opposite seems true.
Also, a vote for Prop 8 is a vote for bigotry and intolerance. You can couch it in whatever moralistic terms you wish, telling two consenting adults they cannot engage in an activity granted to all others just because they are "not like you" is bigotry, which is fueled by hatred and fear.
Enjoy your eternity being cast from God's sight for being judgmental when that is the purview of God, as evidenced by his own words 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'.
It is unfortunate that the above commenter sullied an otherwise civil exchange with a contradictory and reactionary comment. If he is foolish enough to write something like that without rereading it to see its internal inconsistencies than there isn't much more to be said.
Oh my gosh. Okay, I hope this isn't weird, but it's me again, Sarah's friend.
Anyway, I came back to the comments section to get a link that I wanted, and I saw Paranoyd's comment and I just wanted to tell you, Great job at getting a healthy and civil (until Paranoyd entered, anyway) discussion going, and I hope his/her comment didn't make you feel bad because I think a lot of people have really benefited from and enjoyed your post and the dialogue that followed. It took a lot of courage to post what you did and there is just no reason for someone to leave comments like that. You were brave and put yourself out there, and lots of people appreciate it (including me) because it got us thinking about issues, and you did it with dignity and were extraordinarily polite in sharing your thoughts!
Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that! And I will spare you anymore random blog stalker comments....
I am the original "anonymous" of this post. I had no idea that my questions to you about how you feel about this issue, being a member of the LDS church, would spark so many opinions and comments. I ventured back here for the first time since I posted my comment to see if you had responsed and couldn't believe all the different points of view. I have to agree that this (for the most part) has been a very civil discussion and I appreciate the tone that almost everyone here has set, not offensive, just purely stating their take on Prop. 8.
I had a thought last night. I know that one of the concerns that many people have with this proposition is that their children are going to be taught that marriage is between any two people, not between a man and a woman as the bible states. I wondered if these same people are opposed to their children being taught about Evolution in school as well, as that also seems to directly contradict what the church teaches? Are these other things that we must, as parents, re-teach our children about our specific beliefs? And if so, why can't marriage between two people as opposed to a man and a woman be treated the same way?
Thank you for the thoughtful discussion and comments from everyone, although I do have my decision made, I was truly curious how other people arrived at theirs. It teaches me to be more tolerant when I can understand the other person's point of view, so thank you.
(side note: I found your blog initially thru a mutual friend, I went to high school with your husband. Sean B. was one of my good friends growing up.)
I'm sorry, you consider the constitutional requirement to treat everyone under the law the same as a "loophole"? The rest of your comments are hype and fear mongering as the court gave religions exemption from having to change any practice. Furthermore, Prop 8 will not change the educational code, it won't stop teachers from talking about existing Domestic Partnerships. Finally, it won;t do what you really want it to do, whcih is make gay people go away so you don't have to see or deal with them. They will still have unions and adopt kids or have them through other means. Passing Prop 8 will leave over 80,000 kids in California without the same legal recognition of married families.
Furthermore, if Prop 8 passes and is found to actually be an amendment rather than a revision (small chance of that) it will not overturn the courts decision as has widely been stated. Giving the term marriage to same sex unions was a by-product of their decision. If Prop 8 passes, you may strip the title of marriage for all recognized union in CA as that term will then be discriminatory. Perhaps it is best for government to only recognize all legal unions as Civil Unions or Domestic Partnerships anyway and leave "marriage" for churches who only want to marry a 1 man and 1 woman.
Todd in California
If anyone is still stumbling over here... check out my friend Sarah's post at http://stannyann.wordpress.com/2008/10/22/vote-yes/#comment-678
It's SO much better.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
American Ideals: Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Voting yes on prop 8 robs homosexual American citizens of their fundamental rights as an American. Voting yes on prop 8 denies them their right of life because we see them as lesser American citizens. Voting yes on prop 8 denies homosexuals their right to liberty because they would not be allowed to pick their life partner. Lastly, Voting yes on prop 8 would utterly deny their right of happiness.
Though I am an avid supporter against proposition 8, I'm not afraid if it passes. There is finally a shift in the political arena, no longer are you baby boomers going to dominate and hold America by the throat with your outdated beliefs and ways. Change is coming, if you like it or not. Why not make it easier and do whats right? Let people do what they want as long as it does not put anyone else in jeopardy.
This is not a civil rights issue. What right is being taken away? The only think being denied is a title, not rights. If you want to be married, it has to be one man and one woman, that is the definition of marriage. If you want to be life partners then go right ahead, there is nothing stopping you. It would be a mistake to change the definition of marriage. Where does it go from here?
why cant same sex couple be treated the same as "traditional" couples? after all we all are the same.
Check out www.antigayblacklist.com. Yeah, Ross's name is on there.
Post a Comment